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	<title>Comments on: On the distinction between human beings and animals (via the Baha&#8217;i Faith)</title>
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		<title>By: lev</title>
		<link>http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/human-beings-animals-bahai-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-75819</link>
		<dc:creator>lev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/?p=110#comment-75819</guid>
		<description>Marilee, thanks for commenting. It&#039;s sort of thrilling that you found this conversation at all applicable to your work. Would you let us know more about your thesis? I&#039;m sure Anonymous Cowgirl readers would be interested in learning more about it. (Maybe even link to a copy when it&#039;s complete?)

Expanded thinking and a combination of academic and spiritual insight sounds pretty good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marilee, thanks for commenting. It&#8217;s sort of thrilling that you found this conversation at all applicable to your work. Would you let us know more about your thesis? I&#8217;m sure Anonymous Cowgirl readers would be interested in learning more about it. (Maybe even link to a copy when it&#8217;s complete?)</p>
<p>Expanded thinking and a combination of academic and spiritual insight sounds pretty good.</p>
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		<title>By: Marilee</title>
		<link>http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/human-beings-animals-bahai-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-75817</link>
		<dc:creator>Marilee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/?p=110#comment-75817</guid>
		<description>Shwew!  Be careful what you ask for! I was searching for ideas on the distinctions between humans and animals, and did I ever get them!  I am mid-thesis...may have to expand my thinking just a tad.  darn.  :) Thanks to all for the rare (in my experience) combination of academic and spiritual insight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shwew!  Be careful what you ask for! I was searching for ideas on the distinctions between humans and animals, and did I ever get them!  I am mid-thesis&#8230;may have to expand my thinking just a tad.  darn.  <img src='http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Thanks to all for the rare (in my experience) combination of academic and spiritual insight.</p>
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		<title>By: allisonsara</title>
		<link>http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/human-beings-animals-bahai-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-72237</link>
		<dc:creator>allisonsara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 15:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/?p=110#comment-72237</guid>
		<description>also wanted to add, by way of studying for a final I have this afternoon, Aristotle&#039;s perspective on the question (as I understand it).  

1. humans can subordinate their appetites to reason, to rise above the animal nature and survival instinct.
2. human beings can use reason and contemplate truth.
3. to the extent that humans ignore these differences, they are no better than animals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>also wanted to add, by way of studying for a final I have this afternoon, Aristotle&#8217;s perspective on the question (as I understand it).  </p>
<p>1. humans can subordinate their appetites to reason, to rise above the animal nature and survival instinct.<br />
2. human beings can use reason and contemplate truth.<br />
3. to the extent that humans ignore these differences, they are no better than animals.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/human-beings-animals-bahai-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-72206</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 15:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/?p=110#comment-72206</guid>
		<description>Insightful post and comments.  The distinction being made draws my thoughts to the power of choice that we as human beings have.  Do animals have this same power?  They certainly choose certain actions over others, but is there a similar level of capacity behind those choices? It seems like what informs those choices for animals or humans is a key component of the non-material nature that differentiates humans from animals.  

When animals act in a certain way that we might consider savage (hunting and killing a weaker fellow animal), it&#039;s understandable to us humans that such things are a natural part of their nature - hunt or starve. I highly doubt there&#039;s a conscious choice there from the animal&#039;s perspective, but rather instinct and acting on impulse as natural as breathing is to humans. 

But when humans engage in savagery  on an individual (rape, murder, etc.) or collective scale (mass persecution, genocide, etc.), is this a natural part of our nature? Regardless of how often such things occur, these actions stand in stark contrast to the noble and altrusitic nature of humanity that is seen in the determinedly kind, compassionate lives of individuals and communities - not to mention what collective humanity views as reprehensible conduct.  What explains this contrast?

It seems to imply a fundamental choice in our development as human beings, contrasted with that of animals, that allows us to aspire to greater heights or lower depths than what we conceive of as the inherent nobility of animals.  We have a lifetime of millions of choices that determine how our nature will be reflected in action both as individuals and as part of a collective humanity, which in turn of course affects how we treat animals. But this sure sounds like a lot of responsibility being human...Life as a koala doesn&#039;t sound so bad after all. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Insightful post and comments.  The distinction being made draws my thoughts to the power of choice that we as human beings have.  Do animals have this same power?  They certainly choose certain actions over others, but is there a similar level of capacity behind those choices? It seems like what informs those choices for animals or humans is a key component of the non-material nature that differentiates humans from animals.  </p>
<p>When animals act in a certain way that we might consider savage (hunting and killing a weaker fellow animal), it&#8217;s understandable to us humans that such things are a natural part of their nature &#8211; hunt or starve. I highly doubt there&#8217;s a conscious choice there from the animal&#8217;s perspective, but rather instinct and acting on impulse as natural as breathing is to humans. </p>
<p>But when humans engage in savagery  on an individual (rape, murder, etc.) or collective scale (mass persecution, genocide, etc.), is this a natural part of our nature? Regardless of how often such things occur, these actions stand in stark contrast to the noble and altrusitic nature of humanity that is seen in the determinedly kind, compassionate lives of individuals and communities &#8211; not to mention what collective humanity views as reprehensible conduct.  What explains this contrast?</p>
<p>It seems to imply a fundamental choice in our development as human beings, contrasted with that of animals, that allows us to aspire to greater heights or lower depths than what we conceive of as the inherent nobility of animals.  We have a lifetime of millions of choices that determine how our nature will be reflected in action both as individuals and as part of a collective humanity, which in turn of course affects how we treat animals. But this sure sounds like a lot of responsibility being human&#8230;Life as a koala doesn&#8217;t sound so bad after all. <img src='http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/human-beings-animals-bahai-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-72197</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 04:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/?p=110#comment-72197</guid>
		<description>Lev Said,&quot;understanders, the sense-makers, the insight-havers.&quot;
Right!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lev Said,&#8221;understanders, the sense-makers, the insight-havers.&#8221;<br />
Right!</p>
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		<title>By: lev</title>
		<link>http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/human-beings-animals-bahai-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-72140</link>
		<dc:creator>lev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 04:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/?p=110#comment-72140</guid>
		<description>&quot;What else could these adaptations be pointing to, if not some small role [in] a vast and complex system?&quot;

@Ryan, coming back to your post I see that you were discussing the functions other animals play as a way of examining the function we play. 

Maybe part of our function in an &quot;infinitely complex system&quot; is to be the understanders, the sense-makers, the insight-havers. I think part of knowing and loving God is recognizing that our capacity to understand Reality will always be less than the infinite complexity of that reality. So all we can ever do is try to make sense of the world, and try to make a little more sense of it every time we engage with it. 

@allison Hi! Welcome to the blog, friend. It makes me happy that you&#039;re here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What else could these adaptations be pointing to, if not some small role [in] a vast and complex system?&#8221;</p>
<p>@Ryan, coming back to your post I see that you were discussing the functions other animals play as a way of examining the function we play. </p>
<p>Maybe part of our function in an &#8220;infinitely complex system&#8221; is to be the understanders, the sense-makers, the insight-havers. I think part of knowing and loving God is recognizing that our capacity to understand Reality will always be less than the infinite complexity of that reality. So all we can ever do is try to make sense of the world, and try to make a little more sense of it every time we engage with it. </p>
<p>@allison Hi! Welcome to the blog, friend. It makes me happy that you&#8217;re here.</p>
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		<title>By: allisonsara</title>
		<link>http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/human-beings-animals-bahai-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-72131</link>
		<dc:creator>allisonsara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 19:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/?p=110#comment-72131</guid>
		<description>Fantastic post!  Great mix of quotes and reflections, and great comments from readers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fantastic post!  Great mix of quotes and reflections, and great comments from readers.</p>
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		<title>By: lev</title>
		<link>http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/human-beings-animals-bahai-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-72123</link>
		<dc:creator>lev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 02:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/?p=110#comment-72123</guid>
		<description>Ryan, this is beautiful; thank you for sharing these images. Now I sort of want to rename every organism around me by its function in a larger system. &quot;How do you like this solar-powered water pump? We planted it last month.&quot; 

The following two books (available in most libraries) address questions of wilderness and land management. The possibility that what we now think of as unspoiled wilderness was actually tended and shaped by First Nations peoples. Both are on my &#039;to read&#039; list:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10013.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Tending the Wild&lt;/a&gt; by M. Kat Anderson
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ecobooks.com/books/changes.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Changes in the Land&lt;/a&gt; by William Cronon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan, this is beautiful; thank you for sharing these images. Now I sort of want to rename every organism around me by its function in a larger system. &#8220;How do you like this solar-powered water pump? We planted it last month.&#8221; </p>
<p>The following two books (available in most libraries) address questions of wilderness and land management. The possibility that what we now think of as unspoiled wilderness was actually tended and shaped by First Nations peoples. Both are on my &#8216;to read&#8217; list:<br />
<a href="http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10013.php" rel="nofollow">Tending the Wild</a> by M. Kat Anderson<br />
<a href="http://www.ecobooks.com/books/changes.htm" rel="nofollow">Changes in the Land</a> by William Cronon</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/human-beings-animals-bahai-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-72112</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 07:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/?p=110#comment-72112</guid>
		<description>Speaking of permaculture, let&#039;s look at animals and humans in terms of systems: Herbs are soil stabilizers, trees are solar-powered water pumps, birds are high mobility seed-scatterers, Bison are compost tumblers, etc. all brilliantly adapted and working as integral parts of an infinitely complex whole. We can narrowly define them in terms of their purpose.
Humans, we are told, exist to know and love God. This is our essential programming for working in an infinitely complex system. A system in which, like the earthworms, we may be unable to appreciate our role. 
While a few other animals can make tools, learn language systems, and maybe even plan; we&#039;re still way ahead of the curve. We&#039;ve been designed with adaptations that manifest in singing songs, telling stories, designing our surroundings, making pictures, yearning for the unseen, devising ethical systems, and a penchant for existential dread. What else could these adaptations be pointing to, if not some small role a vast and complex system?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of permaculture, let&#8217;s look at animals and humans in terms of systems: Herbs are soil stabilizers, trees are solar-powered water pumps, birds are high mobility seed-scatterers, Bison are compost tumblers, etc. all brilliantly adapted and working as integral parts of an infinitely complex whole. We can narrowly define them in terms of their purpose.<br />
Humans, we are told, exist to know and love God. This is our essential programming for working in an infinitely complex system. A system in which, like the earthworms, we may be unable to appreciate our role.<br />
While a few other animals can make tools, learn language systems, and maybe even plan; we&#8217;re still way ahead of the curve. We&#8217;ve been designed with adaptations that manifest in singing songs, telling stories, designing our surroundings, making pictures, yearning for the unseen, devising ethical systems, and a penchant for existential dread. What else could these adaptations be pointing to, if not some small role a vast and complex system?</p>
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		<title>By: lev</title>
		<link>http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/human-beings-animals-bahai-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-72107</link>
		<dc:creator>lev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 02:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mollusc.org/wordpress/?p=110#comment-72107</guid>
		<description>What a thoughtful comment, Jeremy! I especially liked your description of coming in at the end of the day on the farm, &lt;em&gt;writing&lt;/em&gt; about your experiences. When we write, we often give meaning to our experiences. We put them into language. This desire to &quot;discover the inner meaning of things&quot; helps to define our spiritual capacity. 

Just to clarify for future readers - there is no question that biologically speaking, human beings belong to the animal kingdom. In fact, Abdu&#039;l-Baha is making it quite clear that from a material perspective, human beings and animals have the same qualities. It is only when we look at this quality of consciousness or insight - a spiritual quality - that the Baha&#039;i Faith recognizes a difference between humans and other animals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a thoughtful comment, Jeremy! I especially liked your description of coming in at the end of the day on the farm, <em>writing</em> about your experiences. When we write, we often give meaning to our experiences. We put them into language. This desire to &#8220;discover the inner meaning of things&#8221; helps to define our spiritual capacity. </p>
<p>Just to clarify for future readers &#8211; there is no question that biologically speaking, human beings belong to the animal kingdom. In fact, Abdu&#8217;l-Baha is making it quite clear that from a material perspective, human beings and animals have the same qualities. It is only when we look at this quality of consciousness or insight &#8211; a spiritual quality &#8211; that the Baha&#8217;i Faith recognizes a difference between humans and other animals.</p>
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